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archershipshttp://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/VanDwellers/messages/5808?viscount=-30&expand=1
Well Gig, you have managed to take the system which
I have been writing about for a long time, and claim
that it is your idea. You should know the answer to
your question, because I posted all of those ideas
to your Solar_living group many months ago. I have
also posted them here, to VanDwellers, in a lot of
detail. I have an operating system which I use full
time. I developed it for my van. It is 15" square,
and only 14" high. It's less than half the size of the
smallest commercially available composters, even
the ones designed for boats and RVs. I told you
all about it in your group. You can read it again
in you group archive in my posts where you first
heard these ideas. As a matter off fact, you can
read my detail in your own responces to my posts.
My posts explain all of the details and advantages
of woodash of sawdust, and even provided links.
There is a good long discourse on urine separation
composing systems. I have a lot of posts on the
subject in the VanDwellers archive too. I worked
on developing the system for a year or more,
before I got it to the point where I started using
it fulltime, which was over a year ago.
There is also a lot of information in my posts about using
small solid fuel heaters, in a van. They are basically boat
cabin 'bulkhead heaters' That is one of my main interests
for my WoodGas yahoogroup. You are totally missing one
of the biggest reasons for using such a heater in a van.
Humidity control. Propane heaters, cooking, breathing, all
put huge amounts of moisture into the tiny space. Solid
fuel heaters have been used to control humidity in boats
for years. These are solid fuel heaters. They burns
charcoal, sticks, sometimes coal, wood pellets, and
wood chips.
The composting toilet will use so little ash that
carrying it takes up very little space. My toilet lasts
three or more weeks between emptying. This winter
I used one made from a full height five gallon bucket.
It was not a stylish as my small one, but after about
seven weeks, it still was not full. that was my only
toilet, full time. I can build them that tall, with the
same finished look, and ventilation system as my
very small one. Two sized like a lot of port-a-potty
manufacturers do.
You can buy a Dickinson solid fuel heater:
http://www.boatownersworld.com/dickinsonmarine/newport_solid_fuel_heater.htm
My preference is more down the line of a Bengco:
http://www.bengco.co.uk/
If you want to build your own, here are plans:
http://www.btinternet.com/~faymarine/Costsavers.htm
However, I intend to build one using gasification technology.
I am considering old fashioned cast iron waste pipe as the
outer shell. I would like to be able to see the flame, too.
The most simple could be made from standard black pipe,
for the fire chamber, and the flue. In its simplest form
it would just burn self starting charcoal. Since a small
amount of heat will go a long way in a van, that should
work fine. I plan to test a few designs in the next year.
Charcoal contains about 12,500 BTU/lb
2-3 times as much as wood, and about the
same as bituminous coal. That is 780BTU
per ounce, at about 50% efficiency, it
would put out nearly 400BTU/oz. So,
what does a charcoal bricket weigh?
Does it take 12 to weigh as much as a
loaf of bread. So, maybe 500BTUs
effective heat in every bricket.
Build a tube that will hold about
ten of them, that will burn from the
bottom up, or will drop the ashes into
a lower ash drawer, so that it can be
fired from the top down.
Below is my post to your Solar_living group, where
you got the idea about using woodash instead of sawdust:
_________________________________
Sawdust toilet......
Ash from fires makes an excellent toilet cover material. It contains
a high degree of potash, which is one of the three primary ingredients
in fertilizer. The others are nitrogen, and phosphoric acid. The three
numbers defining the formulation represent nitrogen-phosphoric acid-
potash. Potash is real good if you have sandy soil. As a cover material
in a toilet, fine ash dust absorbs moisture extremely well, and seals the
solids in, much better than a big fibrous material, like grass, or leaves.
Ash absorbs smells, like a charcoal filter, which is what it basically is.
It will take much less ash to cover well. To keep smells down, also avoid
putting urine in the toilet, as much as you can, which may increase the
duration between emptying, by several times. The combination of the
liquid and solid waste, mixed together is the source of almost all of the
bad smell. They are not mixed on our bodies. Mixing them together is a
function of our modern lifestyle, where we must handle our waste, and
mix the two together for convenience. It makes a nasty, smelly mess.
The combination of ash as a cover material, and a conscientious effort
to keep urine levels low, will reduce the smell to a degree (as much as
99%, IMO) that the toilet need not be so "remote" and that it could
even be placed inside of the house, in a closed bathroom, without any
noticeable smell in the rest of the house. However, it is also very easy
to vent such a toilet to outdoors, so that it will not smell in any room.
Why standard flush toilets are not vented by code, seems strange to
me. They are a source of unpleasant smells on a regular basis in most
homes.
-Laren Corie-
BTW......Human waste is low in methane, compared to pigs,
chicken, and cows.
_____________________________________
Here is the next post in our discussion
____________________________________
Gig <gigawatt@1...> wrote
> I had thought about setting up a separate urinal for
> this problem...
Hi Gig;
A very functional male urinal can be made by cutting
out the side of an up-side-down one gallon plastic jug.
It can be mounted on the wall, and the spout connected
to a drain tube, which runs into the waste plumbing or
to a storage tank or jug. Storage jugs work well,
because a new one can be used while the other is setting
a few days before being emptied. A simple bowl wash
system, which is not essention, can be just a spray bottle,
of water, with a drop or two of detergent to act as a
"wetting a agent"
> but did not know where to drain and store the urine.
It can be poured on your compost pile to add nitrogen,
but that will increase the smell of the pile, and may be
objectionable to others who live near. Or, after the urine
has set in a closed container for two or three days, it can
be safely sprayed, directly onto the lawn or garden, though
that will create a very short (15 minutes?) lesser smell
condition too.
> Some composting toilets have a kind of funnel on the front
> side of the toilet bowel, to catch and seperate the urine...
Making the 'funnel' is the most difficult part. If it does
not have to be real nice, then you can try softening a plastic
funnel in warm water, and bending it to shape. The result
usually distorts. Some systems use a simple board/ramp,
that runs down to a gutter that drain at one end. If you are
building a fairly large, permanently mounted system, it is a
relatively simple feature to incorporate. In the very small,
convenient, portable system, that I have been working on, it
can be a major design/development task.
I am completely convince, after much study, that urine
separation is the best composting toilet technology. It
appears that many large international groups, like the
World Bank, also think so. Urine separation is the
fastest growing waste treatment technology world
wide. Due to its radipity in the intially killing of
harmful pathenogens, and reduction of the volume
of waste, it is the best solution for the growing
population of developing and third world countries,
which are faced with the decision to polute or put
in ridiculously expensive centralized waste treatment.
This technology offers them, a modern technology, that
works with natural, simply, on site, to quickly process
the wastes, rather than pumping them for miles, to
plants that do no better at processing.
Urine separating toilets work by a very different
process than wet composters. Urine separating toilets are
really desiccators, not composters. By not allowing the urine
to mix in, they are able to dehydrate the solid waste, and kill
the bacteria that ways. The process has shown to be even
more effective than standard composting toilets. It also
reduces the volume to a very impressive point. A five gallon
sawdust toilet must be emptied every day for a family of five.
I made a five gallon system using woodash, and made a cons-
-cientious effort to keep all urine out of it. It lasted me seven
weeks of 100% fulltime use, and still did not need emptying. That
is about ten times longer.
> However, it is also very easy to vent such a toilet to outdoors, so that
> it will not smell in any room.
That experimental toilet did not have an active venting/drying
system, and was only placed in the basement utility room, with a
gas water heater, that was the only active venting of the room.
Without the toilet directly vented, there was never a noticeable
smell, when I entered the room.
> I had considered setting up a black painted aluminum vent pipe
> on the roof, with a wind turbine on top so the sun heated vent
> pipe and the wind powered turbine vent would create some
> vacuum to pull out any smells from the bathroom...
The problem with that approach is that it can not be trusted to
work all of the time, and may even backdraft in cold weather
when the furnace draws air. The five gallon system I described
above, was set up at a city house I am remodeling. I had the
bathroom plumbing shut down in that house for two months, and
I threw together the ash toilet in literally, a couple of minutes.
I have gotten so adept at this, that I always have the raw
materials to build one, handy. At my home in the woods, I have
a much nicer looking experimental separator toilet. It is very
small, because I am working on a design that can compete directly
with port-a-potties, but last weeks between emptying. That one
is only a 3 gallon capacity, with an internal cylinder, venting, and
other features, built in around it. That one consistently lasts
about 3 1/2 weeks between emptying. It is vented, out a flexible
tube that runs to a vent stack with a Nicro day/night PV powered
fan, that will run for 2-3 days without sunlight, and will also vent
1000CFH in a 12 mph breeze. Nicro is the company that held the
world's first patent on powering a vent fan with PVs. However,
their fans have gotten expensive. I bought mine in 1997 for only
$49. They are about $12_.95 now. It would be relatively easy
to build one. I plan to look into that next year. You can get
Nicro's same housing for only about $44 then add your own cell,
battery (9volt Nicad), and fan. Of course the fan could be
run from center power, but the self contained system simplifies
installation, therfore reduces cost.
http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=20072
http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=19801
There are a lot of interesting boat vents. This one would
be good to mount a Solar cell on and little fan inside of:
http://ca.binnacle.com/online/product.asp?dept%5Fid=10060&pf%5Fid=23109
Here is that same Nicro vent, without the fan and Solar cell for
about $80 less:
http://ca.binnacle.com/online/product.asp?dept%5Fid=10050&pf%5Fid=23955
-Laren Corie-
__________________________________
Here is my next post in our discussion. Note
the comments about my compost toilet design
interest being for uses where port-a-potties
are now being use, like motorhomes.
_________________________________
My primary orientation, has been the reduction of volume, smell,
size, tending, leakage risk, and other factors confronted in a
motorhome installation, or lesser issues in rural house use,
in conjuction with water catchment.
Gig <gigawatt@1...> wrote;
> One idea I had was that the problem with urine was bacteria growth
> I wanted to see how long it would be before I could detect any
> odor... and that was on the third day.... and I attribute the odor
> to bacteria growth...
Yes, bateria very often likes the boundary between wet and dry,
with oxygen. It is important to store the urine for a few days
in a sealed container. This procedure has been tested, and is
the universal approach used in the separator toilet industry.
I don't recall the chemistry involved, or many details, but
much information is available online.
> One thing I learned from the Humanure Handbook is that the
> bad bacteria in urine and in solid waste matter dies if subjected
> to heat that is 152 degrees F..... this is same process that is used
> in Pasteurization and has been around for awhile... so it occured
> to me that a the quick handling of both waste products (urine and
> the solid waste material) could be rendered harmless if it is
>exposed to some solar heat...
The problem that occurs is that fast heating can also kill the
good bacteria that is needed to break down the solids into
desirable compost. You can end up with sterile crap, and
nothing more. The compost pile will generate its own heat,
and can do well, as long as you turn it occassionally to keep
it from going anaerabic. It might be better to use the
techology of the separation toilets, which has been developed
after the time that the Humanure Handbook was written.
A Solar air panel could be used to preheat incoming vent
air, to speed the desiccation process. The biggest problem
with doing that is the upsetting of the balance of venting
from the house, and any backdrafting and smell that might
result. It is quite simple to vent the toilet, via a stack, or
just out the wall, and to power the system with a very small
PV fan, like the Nicro, or even just the stack effect and
a rotory ventilator. I think that, with a Solar preheater,
that it would be advisable to have another inline fan, that
would activated whenever the seat was lifted. That is not
a bad idea, even with a vent that always draws only house
air. Some commercial system have that feature.
> I have used my home built solar oven for years, and I
> can get 150 degrees or more from an ordinary cardboard
> box with black felt on the inside, and a glass pane on top
> of the open box...
> What I am saying, is that it is easy to get the Pasteurization
> temperatures that kills bad bacteria that cause the odors in
> both the urine and solid waste... A thermosyphon effect solar
> 'Heat' panel could dehydrate both the urine and the solid
> material quickly, most of the time... and this would compost
> the material quicker...
It makes it more complicated, and must have Solar exposure.
It hasn't seemed to me, to be neccessary to get that elaborate,
and start punching several holes through walls, and then having
to deal with a variety of varying conditions, and adding provisions
to control back-drafting. It work great without all that stuff.
That may be wonderful in April during the day, but that is only
one condition that the system will face. Simply using a small
ventilator fan , and keeping a steady slow flow of air 24/7
from the living space, is all that it takes to desiccate the solids,
and keep the noticable smell to zero. I see no reason for the
redundant systems.......just keep it as simple as feasible.
With a present history of about thirty years, the technology of
wet composting toilets is still far more popular, than the relatively
new technology of the desiccating toilet, but according to sources,
like The World Bank, which has shifted all of their efforts toward
desiccators, this is the most rapidly growing waste treatment system
on the planet. It is predicted to be a primary solution to the sanitary
problems that loom on the horizon for the developing world. That
world may develop without the centralized infrastructures which
strangle, and limit our world. We, on this list, know the potential
for stand alone energy systems. They won't have our problems of
decentralization, if they never get centralized, in the first place.
>The reason I mentioned Solar as the heat source, is that
> a lot of composting toilets use grid powered heating
> element inside the collection chamber to steam away
> the urine and dehydrate the solid material, which
>would not do for me... since I am mostly off grid power
> now, and do not want to power a resistance heating element...
Many of the smaller wet composters do, but not the
desiccators. The ventilation only needs to be a small
fraction of that needed for a wet composter, and no
heating is need. The Nicro moves a maximum of
1000CFH (< 17CFM) and has its PV and battery
built right in.
>> Making the 'funnel' is the most difficult part. If it does
>> not have to be real nice, then you can try softening a plastic
>> funnel in warm water, and bending it to shape. The result
>> usually distorts.
> I think that could be easily done... a person could take a one
> gallon size detergent container then the bottom could be cut
> out at an angle, and a flexible garden hose could be screwed
> into the nozzle of the container for the drainage... then bolt
> it all to the wall for use... this would work really nice in a
> remote location... the urine could be piped out into a vented
> composting box with a solar heating panel so that the liquid
> could be evaporated away after being absorbed into the
> compost...
That is fine, for a large toilet, where one person is involved, and
utility is the only concern. But, making a collection system, which
will prevent all mixing, from either side, with a variety of body
types, especially with a very compact size, is not at all simple.
>> A five gallon sawdust toilet must be emptied every day for a
>> family of five. I made a five gallon system using woodash, and
>> made a conscientious effort to keep all urine out of it. It lasted
>> me seven weeks of 100% fulltime use, and still did not need
>> emptying. That is about ten times longer.
> That is impressive...
I must add that, those results were also with a paper
separation system, where the paper went into a small,
covered, bag container. That kept the solids free of
any "trash" so that, with the ash, it already looked
like rich soil. Again, my effort has been toward
researching a system, as small as a porta-a-potty.
A system can, of course, have the paper mixed with
the solids, but it does increase the volume.
> I did go to the Nicro website, and view the roof vents that
> they sell... a person with some hobby skills might make a
> similar vent with a small panel, and a DC computer exhause fan...
Here is a Nicro, that is the same basic vent as one of their Solar
models. This one has the same space to mount the PV, and is open
inside, so there is room for a fan and motor. It is only $23, and
has the same passive 1000CFH capacity, as well as dams to stop
rain infiltration. It seems to be an optimum starting point. I plan
to try converting one into a powered active day/night PV vent.
http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=11948
However, since you already have a PV system and batteries,
you might want to just run your vent off that.
> I have plenty rain water here at my place, in fact I have
> never even gotten close to running out of water, even with
> my smaller, 500 gallon water tank.. If I expanded the roof
> gutters to the whole roof, I could easily have 5,000 to
> 10,000 gallons collected during a weekend in a good rain...
> so the water usage was not a problem with me...
I have been living in Michigan with only fifty gallons
of storage, and have never come close to running out. But
again, my study is in minimal systems, and I push the envelope,
beyond where hardly any one would. I spent years, designing
big suburban Solar houses that were just as wasteful as other
"normal" houses. They could just be bigger and "cooler" than
their friends gloomy little boxes, that had higher heating bills.
They wasted Solar heat instead of fossil fuel heat. It was
just a choice of how to waste, not to stop doing it.
> what I was trying to do, was to find a way not use the
> city's sewage pipes, or use an 'in the ground' septic tank
> system for sewage disposal...
I have a septic, but I am trying to free myself from it,
though I still use it as my gray water disposal system.
Hopefully later this year, I can start building a small
stand alone house, back in my woods, with no well, no
septic, no utilities, no fuel brought into the site.
-Laren-
______________________________
Here is another one........from you Solar_living group
______________________________
Here is a rough design I did, that incorporates all
of those features. The two large windows on the left
are actually Solar air panels which feed up to the
hot water tank, then the air vents out. During the
heating season the joist space, in the ceiling below
the sleeping loft is filled with 2-liter PET soda
bottles filled with water, as thermal mass. The two
large (22.6ft²@) windows on the right have night
insulation. The right end is a point. The decks
at either end fold up, when being transported.
This is a lot more 'house-like' than most 'trailers'
but trailers with slide-out and much larger size
can be equipped for alternative energy too. RVers
are one of the biggest markets for Solar, and
independent energy. This tiny Victorian house
was an exercise to see what could be built on
a standard car-hauler trail, to overcome the
issue of a more northern climate. The elaborate
style also expresses visuall flexibility. Not all
trailers have to look like metal boxes. I also did
one for a hot arid climate. It was more "Pueblo
Revival" style, with a high flat roof, that used
a "roof-pond" system for passive thermal control.
This is very tiny, at only 144ft² so that it can
easily be trailered behind a standard van or truck.
It can also have a screenroom of just about any
size, act as an expanded living space. A panelized
storage building can stored on the back porch,
behind the fold-up deck, while on the road. You
can even carry your landscape tools, to clear
your site, and store then in their own shed.
"Park Models" are 400ft² homes, that can
be moved, but are definitely not 'trailers'
http://web.axilar.net/LarenCorie/tinyhousesouth3.jpg
http://web.axilar.net/LarenCorie/tinyhousefloorplan.jpg
> I like change from time to time... maybe to stay in
> some nice senic place where there are a lot of mountains...
> then later move
Yes, that requires true mobility, like a trailer, a van,
an RV, etc. Ever since I was in my twenties, I liked
the idea of have a small piece of rural land in a few
totally different climates, around the country. That
desire was strongly related to my desire to design
and build for the varied conditions. I may still do
that, but my new plan is to build very basic, simple
one room structures, that I can literally 'dock'
my van onto. Then I can transfer certain systems
from the van, like my porta-potty sized composting
toilet, my stove, and perhaps my futon. These small
structures would not only give me plenty of elbow
room, they would also give control over temperature.
I would like one in ski country, very well insulated,
indirect gain via a low-mass sunspace, and a wood
stove for back-up heating.
> up to now, all my traveling has been conventional... by air,
> staying in a Hotel, and renting a car...
I have always hated traveling that way. Like Bill,
I am also a homebody, but I want to go places too.
My solution is to be able to take my home with me.
> but in the not too distant future... thanks somewhat to
> technology, some of that may change... I can see a day
> when I travel around in a Van or some sort of portable
> home... with PV panels for homepower, and a solar heat
> panel for hot water... and a cell phone for communications,
> plus wireless internet
You would enjoy many of the posts on VanDwellers.
They approach the unique issue, from a creative
technical angle. PCM heat storage of engine waste
heat. Desiccants to capture breathe heat and moisture
to avoid condensation. Water heating with waste engine
heat. Cooking with waste engine heat. Swamp coolers.
"Sol-air" temperature reduction. Small air-to-air heat
exchangers, composting toilets, and literally thousands
of other subjects that the regular RV crowd has not
even thought of.
I will be getting an All-Wheel-Drive Astro/Safari
van later this year, which I will be setting up to
live in, while I am out on the road.
-Laren Corie-
__________________________
You will find a lot more of my post with more detail
on these subjects in the VanDwellers archive, the cheap-shelters
archive, the housestrucks archive, and in your own Solar_living
archive.
-Laren Corie-
Passive Solar Building Design Since 1975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas
"Generate electricity from wood"