Overton&#39;s Baseball

It's a good thing she and the baby are doing fine. My best guess, however, would be that she was unduly concerned about the welfare of herself and her baby, based on past birth experiences.

I won't get into more detail here unless you're curious why I'd say that, but I intend to post this story to another community. :-)

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jette.livejournal.com

I think it was more the eight hour drive to the hospital.

Supposing it was because she was brainwashed by those horrible doctor men to only think she couldn't deliver vaginally really speaks more about your privileged preception of health care access than anything else.

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Umm... I wasn't speaking to you, but gee... thanks for the insult, anyway.

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Well, *I'm* curious, or I'd like to be linked to the post in the other community. When it comes to the welfare of her and her baby, I'm honestly having a hard time thinking of what could be worse (equally bad, sure, but worse?) than cutting one's own self open with a kitchen knife and hoping the nurse would show up in time to stitch me together.

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My first thought was, "What made her think the baby *couldn't* be born vaginally?" Since she "had problems" with her first baby, it makes sense that she was thinking back to that experience.

There are very few real reasons for an emergency cesarean (we have to assume that she didn't do this due to "fetal distress" since there was no monitor, nor due to pre-existing medical conditions of her own such as extreme hypertension or diabetes). Those reasons include placenta previa (placenta covers the os, or opening to the uterus), or placenta abruptia (placenta separates from the uterus). If either of these were the case she would have been hemorrhaging, and probably wouldn't have been able to do what she did.

It only makes sense that her reason for doing this was based on her previous childbirth experience. Not knowing what the reasons were for her first cesarean puts me at a disadvantage in truly analyzing this, but I know for a fact that many women in the US have cesareans for "failure to progress", or because the baby is "too large".

By the way, I was in labor with my fifth baby for three days.

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Are you saying that she was mistakenly thinking the baby was taking too long to come out, because presumably she'd had a C-section before for a not-really-necessary reason?

The article is confusing because it says that she had a baby die due to "labor complications", not (explicitly) because there was a C-section. I'm really interested to hear more details (assuming they're even correct -- I've seen firsthand how reporters botch details). So my thought was that she worried that if she didn't cut the baby out, it would die of complications (umbilical cord wrapped around its neck, perhaps?) before she could get it to the hospital.

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I went back and reread the story.

I'm saying that my *first* thought was, "What caused her to think that such an extreme step was the best thing to do under these circumstances?"

You're right, the article didn't mention a previous cesarean. I had remembered that incorrectly. But something obviously happened with that last one, and this woman believed that cutting her baby out of her abdomen, with a kitchen knife under unsanitary circumstances, would be better than proceeding with a natural birth.

Babies rarely die because of an umbilical cord around the baby's neck. The cord is usually long enough to wrap around without causing problems. The baby is born, you unwrap the cord, and everyone is fine.

Anyway, there is obviously more to this story, but I doubt we'll ever hear it. I'd say, based on statistics alone, she had a much better chance for a good outcome if she'd allowed things to progress normally. I'm glad the baby is fine, and I hope the mother continues to be healthy. I wonder what that scar tissue will do to her chances of delivering more healthy babies in the future, though.

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I'm not trying to dispute anything you've said, just understand exactly what you mean.

I am just asking a "take an educated guess" question: What specific prior experiences with childbirth could have made this woman think her decision was the best one for all concerned? Because to me it sounds (literally) crazy, and any number of things (most notably, waiting it out while driving to the hospital) would have been a better decision.

From your comments about unnecessary C-sections, I thought you were saying that her reason might've been that she had been told at a prior birth (and was firmly convinced of it) that either she or the baby would die if she didn't have a C-section quickly. Is that what you meant?

I'm also not disputing what you said about most C-sections being unnecessary, I just want to know what your guess is, as to where this particular woman got the idea that HERS was necessary or better than driving to the hospital.

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My best educated guess as to why this woman thought it would be better to cut her baby out of her abdomen, rather than wait for natural delivery or hospital transfer, is that somewhere along the way she got the idea that cesareans are less risky than natural births. This could have happened from her previous experience(s) with birth. Someone could have even told her that her last baby would have lived if she'd had a cesarean, but obviously that's just a guess.

But somewhere along the way this woman believed the idea that cutting a baby out of her abdomen was less risky for her than either delivering vaginally at home, or being transferred to a hospital. By the way, considering the level of care at those hospitals statistically she would stand a better chance of having a healthy outcome by staying home *assuming there were no obvious pre-existing conditions*. And 16 hours of labor is not that extreme.

Interesting side note: with the new law in the US, if someone were to do this here and the baby died the mother could be charged with murder.

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=) Hi, hope you don't mind me commenting... I just wanted to add my speculative two cents to the discussion.

I don't think the normal reasons for c-section can be accurately applied to this case, because she wasn't in a normal environment for c-section (i.e. hospital). She had no access to monitors (as you mentioned before), and could, therefore, not know the exact state of her fetus.

So for the sake of discussion, let me throw out some speculation. If she went into labor, she probably sent the other woman for the nurse immediately. Let's say the nurse (or more likely, midwife), came right away. If it takes eight hours to reach the clinic and eight hours to come back, then the expectant mother may have already been in labor for 16 hours. So let's continue the speculation to make the guess that if she performed the c-section on herself (highly dangerous, not to mention difficult), it was most likely because there was no other available help (this is under the assumption that if a husband or other were present, they would do more than idly observe while the woman picked up her kitchen knife). If she was indeed alone, in labor without edidural (so therefore, a great deal of pain), and unsure of when or if help would return, this would certainly engender some degree of desperation. To add to this, a previous loss of a child and the fact that she's AMA (advanced maternal age), the success of this birth could mean much more to her than under normal circumstances. To the point of risking her life rather than see her unborn child die? Perhaps. Desperation and maternal instincts make anything possible.

I would wager her reasons for doing what she did were based on a variety of circumstantial factors: perhaps a breached birth that she could not rotate on her own, maybe failure for the baby's head to descend, maybe misalignment of the head with the pelvic outlet, etc. all perceived as continued labor without any descent of the fetus. It could even be that she was so tired after 16 hours of labor that she thought she couldn't push anymore, and the baby was at risk of distress and death if she didn't deliver soon somehow. That uncertainty, or any such uncertainty really, could have motivated such a move.

As for her own safety (the question a few comments ago as to why a woman would attempt such a dangerous procedure), the mother probably didn't give much thought as to her own safety so much as the safety of her child.

I don't know if that made any sense, but I that's my educated guess for how it came about. =)

Oh, and hi! Nice to meet you all, btw.

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Btw, I had hoped that she used the liquor to sterilize the area before making the incision, but it seems more like she drank it. If so...well, that wasn't exactly in the best interests of her baby. Drunken, surgeries are never a good idea. ;)

Also, the emergent nature of the situation is highly dependent, I think, on the rate of contractions (among other things). Some women have contractions far apart or irregularly for a long time before the actual active birthing begins. Others may start and finish within a couple hours.

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Ok, misread the situation. Instead of 16, make that 8 hours. =) Sorry!!

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crasch.livejournal.com

If I were about to slice open my own abdomen, I think I'd drink the liquor too.

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=) Yeah, I don't think I could've done it sober.

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I'm sure there are several possibilities, and we can all agree that, for whatever reason, this woman was desperate.

We will each see this from our own viewpoints, mine being that of a trained midwife, mother of one who was born with all the medical interventions, four that were born completely naturally, and one (number six) who died at birth due to complications. I know all about iatrogenic complications, as well as the history of cesareans and how they killed mothers before they did them in sterile environments with antibiotics at their disposal.

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I sincerely didn't mean to imply that you didn't know any of what I mentioned (it was clear from your comments that you had medical training, or were at least extremely well-read). I only wanted to share what little I knew and participate in the discussion, because I thought the subject was interesting. Sorry if I offended or sounded presumptive; it wasn't intended at all.

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I wasn't offended at all, and please forgive me for causing you to think I was. I simple meant to say that we will truly each look at this from our own viewpoints. Yours is every bit as legitimate as mine. :-)

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halleyscomet.livejournal.com

Whatever her reasons for doing it, the fact that she could do it means she's either one of the strongest, most determined people on the planet or a total loon. I'm leaning toward the former.

Now, I'm about to step into a bit of trouble, but I would like to offer an insight into the mind of a woman in birth. This insight was provided by my mother as she was telling me tidbits of my own birth.

After being in the hospital for a number of hours, and was at 10 centimeters, she got out of the bed and started getting dressed.

The doctor and my Father were naturally curious about this turn of events, and she replied, "I'm done. I'm fed up and I'm going home. You can finish this without me."

Now, ignoring the fact that leaps of logic such as this are common for my mother, I would like to use this incident to illustrate a point.

The hormones flooding the female body during child birth can really mess up one's thought patterns and decision making abilities.

Doing her own C-Section was clearly a good idea at the time, and while we may bicker about her motivations I will definitively say I'm too smart to call he to task on it to her face.

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To be perfectly honest, I can't decide if she's brave or crazy. I mean, what if she sliced the kid's head off while she was doing this? Did she figure he was gonna die anyway, if she didn't do it? Also, why not head for the hospital as soon as she felt labor begin? She ended up there anyway. Why did she do it -- to save his life or her own, especially considering she had other kids? I need more details, or for somebody to tell me what I'm not considering.

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lemonhd.livejournal.com

EEEGADS!!

I am unworthy.

;)

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If anybody wants to pay thirty bucks for it, the article by Dr. Valle is available here.

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setigirl9.livejournal.com

I'm curious - are you shouting dance or I'll fill ya' full of lead! in that icon? :)

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